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Pathfinder: Toughness or Dodge?

Dungeons and Dragons D20 system.
And now Pathfinder

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Post Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:39 pm

Pathfinder: Toughness or Dodge?

given the choice (Dex>12)
is Toughnes with 1HP per Level (after 3rd)
to be preferred over
Dodge with +1 dodge bonus to AC ?

max 20HP doesn't sound impressive: it's maybe one melee hit or two.

and while those HP are a gonner after that hit, the AC bonus keeps staying around to prevent further hits.
* my emphasis

http://dmreference.com/SRD/
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/

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Post Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:01 am

Re: Pathfinder: Toughness or Dodge?

I'd go for Dodge. It opens up SOOO many feat trees like Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, and a host of other goodies.

Toughness gets you.....1 hp/ 3 levels....yea not seeing an up-side.

What class/build are you looking at anyways? A fighter wouldn't really need it since it's already got d10 HD every level where as a Wizard has d6 (using Pathfinder) or a squishy Rogue (d8). What what's your Con score?
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Post Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:41 am

Re: Pathfinder: Toughness or Dodge?

For those of you who don't follow the difference between Pathfinder and Dungeons and Dragons 3.0 / 3.5

Pathfinder:

Dodge (Combat)
Your training and ref lexes allow you to react swiftly to
avoid an opponents’ attacks.
Prerequisite: Dex 13.
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to your AC. A
condition that makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC also
makes you lose the benefits of this feat.

Toughness
You have enhanced physical stamina.
Benefit: You gain +3 hit points. For every Hit Die you
possess beyond 3, you gain an additional +1 hit point. If you
have more than 3 Hit Dice, you gain +1 hit points whenever
you gain a Hit Die (such as when you gain a level).


Dungeons and Dragons

DODGE [General]
You are adept at dodging blows.
Prerequisite: Dex 13+.
Benefit: During your action, you designate an opponent and receive
a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks from that opponent.
You can select a new opponent on any action. Note: A condition that
makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also
makes you lose dodge bonuses. Also, dodge bonuses (such as this
one and a dwarf’s racial bonus to dodge giants) stack with each
other, unlike most other types of bonuses.

TOUGHNESS [General]
You are tougher than normal.
Benefit: You gain +3 hit points.
Special: A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its effects
stack.



Now for my 2 cents, I personally would have said to go with toughness in 3.0 or even 3.5 because it allows a feat that I love from Savage Species called Roll With It. The feat allows DR 2/- which is really nice when you are playing a meat shield. (For full info on Roll With It chcek out Savage Species page 39) However Pathfinder seems to have Drastically changed Dodge First off it gives you the dodge bonus to everything not just 1 like in DND However it does not look like it stacks with other Dodge bonuses. Toughness also got a face lift and now looks like it combines DND's Toughness and Improved Toughness. So in all honesty I would choose Dodge for Pathfinder and I would probably still stick with Toughness or Improved Toughness for Dungeons and Dragons.
Justin Driscoll
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Post Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:47 am

Re: Pathfinder: Toughness or Dodge?

@Diffan

no question Dodge opens up other goodies, but the Wizard I'm constructing has no need for them.
plus its a sort of general question: what keeps a character alive for longer? +1HP per level or +1 to AC.

Diffan wrote: What what's your Con score?

Con is 12,
at Level 10 this would be 58HP with avarage rolls
the other option would be Arcane Armor Training for AC+2 from Leather, at the cost of a swift action when casting. But I thought I rather have half the AC bonus and have it apply to touch attacks as well.


@Justin
RE: Does it Blend (I mean Stack)

from the Combat section:

Dodge Bonuses: Dodge bonuses represent actively avoiding blows. Any situation that denies you your Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses. (Wearing armor, however, does not limit these bonuses the way it limits a Dexterity bonus to AC.) Unlike most sorts of bonuses, dodge bonuses stack with each other.

I think that is flat out general enough to make the dodge bonus from the feat stack with all others, even without extra mentioning it in the feat description.
* my emphasis

http://dmreference.com/SRD/
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/

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Post Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:38 am

Re: Pathfinder: Toughness or Dodge?

(The below is the rant I wrote before I decided to post this. Pathfinder dodge beats toughness for you here. More feedback in rant.)


Hold on, your making a wizard?

The hell you even CONSIDERING those two feats? Jebus!

YOUR A WIZARD! Cmon mang! WIZARD FEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATS!

Like... STILL SPELL! Then you can get armour proficency next... and NEVER WORRY ABOUT ARCANE FAILURE AGAIN!

Your better off going armour pro-light and geting something that has a low arcane failure if your desperate for ac... and eventually a mitirl version of that gives you the same thing without the spell failure!

What level are you?

Light armour with mith (+1000 g) is 10% off of spell fail... AND you dont -look- like a mage so intelegent critters wont go CASSSSSTAAAAAAAH! and kill you dead. A chain shirt mithirilized is 1100 g, and has a 10% spell failure- that is like a 2 in 20 chance. Worth it! Especially if you can tweak it with D&D items (Mithril distana... mithril bishops mantle... ) or other items (Mithril armoured kilt? Would that be med?).

Im not sure about Pathfinder but there is an exotic sheild in D&D that is called a guantlent sheild- leaves your hand open while you have a sheild bonus to AC... you could burn your feat and grab that!
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Post Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:59 pm

Re: Pathfinder: Toughness or Dodge?

nice rant there. :roll:
I'm not going into details of my Arcane Caster design, the question applies for other types of characters as well.

can you elaborate on why Dodge is the better option?

5% enemies miss chance increase vs. HP for about one melee hit (plus the HP also help with other things besides combat)
* my emphasis

http://dmreference.com/SRD/
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/

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Post Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Pathfinder: Toughness or Dodge?

Dodge is better, as that extra AC has the potential to put you out of reach of most baddies- and as a caster most things that target you are gonna either be

a) Horde like dudes- a crapload of lower CR monsters that dont have as good BaB so they rely on volume of hits. Against these guys, every AC point adds to stumping them, since eventually (and quickly) they will get to the point of relying on 20s to hit... at witch point the extra HP from dodge does SFA, a 20 will suck that up no problem.
(The big nasty one-on-one heavy hitting high BAB dudes will be tied up by your melee)


b) things that will strike you with touch attacks. Deflection blocks that, so yeah. Go go gadget deflection bonus!

Plus, dodge opens up some options... nothing unique comes to mind for regular casters, but if your doing something hybred like a dread necro, warmage, ect dodge can do a LOT for ya.
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Post Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:57 pm

Re: Pathfinder: Toughness or Dodge?

Also if you add it up, per level.... Toughness does not = 1 hit. It equils less. Average mob damage at 3 is something like 5, or 6... so toughness reduces the time it takes you to die by half a round? Not worth it at all imo.

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